Monday 16 April 2012

Inside the black box

It's one of those daft phrases invented to obscure a dangerous reality: the black box model.  The DWP told bidders for the Work Programme contracts that they would be able to do whatever they liked without interference or inspection.  "We won't tell you how to get people into work.  You will be so motivated by potential profit that you will do whatever is necessary.  And we won't bug you with Ofsted inspections."  And along with that freedom, the private companies were also handed a very dangerous power: the ability to make people destitute, without appeal.
So what is inside that black box?  There's a wonderful blog post doing the rounds by Izzy Koksal.  She describes the surreal experience of a "motivational course" she was sent on by A4e.  A4e and others seem to think it's worth spending money on this damaging nonsense but not on genuine skills training.  I contrast this with my own experience back in the early 90s.  I was sent by the JC on a 2-day programme for unemployed professionals (though the guy running it had insisted on having non-professional people as well).  It was practical and helpful, and he also tackled the motivational stuff.  He was concerned about people who saw their identity bound up in their jobs.  He told me that I would be all right because I didn't fall into that trap.  I wonder what that chap would think of the bogus psychology being perpetrated by the "trainer" Izzy describes.  Do read it.
I've had some more disturbing but unpublishable comments.  One points out that clients are being pushed into self-employment but are not allowed to seek advice from the Jobcentre or anyone else.  That means they are totally dependent on a private company which cannot be impartial. 
Another highlights the problems of the power to "sanction".  I couldn't publish it as a comment because it named the A4e office, but here's the edited version:
"I too have had problems with letters, just recently they failed to send one out at all. Previously at A4e **** when I was last in, I asked when the next appointment was. My advisor simply said that the letter I would receive would tell me when. So naturally when I never received the letter the appointment was missed. This was the first time I had missed an appointment however and A4e chose not to sanction me this time, whether they knew they'd made a mistake or whether I was getting the benefit of the doubt, hard to say. If it was the latter, next time I might not be so lucky.  What further distressed me about this though was that A4e didn't tell me I wasn't going to get sanctioned, on the phone they said 'You shouldn't be sanctioned but the jobcentre are getting funny about that recently...'  implying that it was up to the job centre whether I get sanctioned or not. Fearing for my financial situation (for those who don't know, a sanction doesn't just take away your JSA but your housing/council benefits too), I rang up the Jobcentre and they informed me that not only did a sanction hinge on the private contractors say so, but the system had changed under this work programme and sanctions can now be applied without getting the claimants side of the story. Meaning, if a letter goes missing and I miss an appointment, any benefits I rely on could be cut off before I even find out about it.  I can hardly complain right now, seeing as this time I didn't receive a sanction. But what about next time? What about the thousands of other people who genuinely didn't receive letters and will automatically lose benefits because of a lack of safeguard against A4e's mistakes?  The government claims this work programme is different to the last one. It is in some respects, it is at least more draconian. But there's no real difference. It seems incredible to me that a work programme which failed for the last 5 years would be renewed yet again by a government that's supposed to be fiscally conservative (It'll cost the tax payer what, 5 billion over this parliament? George Osbourne wants another 10 billion out of the welfare budget, scrapping what is bound to be a totally useless work programme would get them half way there if only it was politically viable). It's even more incredible that providers who clearly failed the vast majority of their clients last time around would be given increased powers to sanction on-demand a third time around.  I sincerely hope it was a one off, for my sake and everyone elses on the work programme."
Smaller organisations and charities which signed up as sub-contractors have told clients that they can't fund training courses because they can't afford it.  While this may be true, it leaves the clients without help or hope, and it begs the question of why these organisations signed up in the first place.
It's becoming clear, as well, that clients who don't submit tamely to something they see as wrong are being threatened, and understandably they don't want to risk destitution or a permanent black mark against them.  The government handed power to private companies which are not fit to wield it.  That's what the "black box model" amounts to.

PS.  This forum thread just popped up.  Scroll down and read the letter and the piece about Instant Training.  Their "success stories from partners" are all from A4e staff, so it's not clear whether they provide courses for anyone else.  I can't find any mention of NLP. 

48 comments:

  1. I don't believe sanctions take away Housing Benefit. It's an entirely different benefit from Jobseekers or whatever so it wouldn't be affected. Where you may have a problem is that it might get stopped automatically because the council could be informed that your JSA hasbeen stopped so they'd assume you've got a job or similar. You may have to advise them that's not the case but you should still be eligible.

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    1. Yes you are right Bill. That happened to me when I was sanctioned two years ago for forgetting an appointment at The Job Centre. Housing Benefit was initially suspended.

      Delete
  2. It is very scary, I cover my back at all times, I make damn sure i am protected. It is a very bad situation when you want to work, you expect these places to help you get work, but you are not sent on training, forced to go self employed, get sanctioned due to errors by these companies. These smaller companies, signed up with possibly the best intentions they were sold the idea that it would work out better that it has. Some may think a tenth of a pie is better than no pie.

    I have been on these courses, how to do a CV, How to Fill in an application form, at the last count 5 times for the application form (over the last 3 a4e sessions). A lot of these courses just use psychobabble, and a lot seem to focus on it is YOUR fault. If you have never experienced these courses you would think yes i can take something from it... but the reality when you experience is exactly like Izzy's feeling. That it HAS to be a joke.. but the Joke is on those people who do their best and still get blamed for failing

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  3. Interesting stuff, but just to clarify, although when a sanction is applied it often results in HB & CTax benefit being stopped as it's recorded as a change in circumstances, it (at least in theory) shouldn't do.

    If someone has had a sanction applied, they should contact their local authority as a matter of urgency to make a "nil income declaration" - some LAs provide forms on their websites, others don't. Once they've done this, their HB and CTax benefit should be reinstated. The link below from Brighton and Hove gives an indication of the information you can expect to have to provide: http://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/downloads/bhcc/housingbenefits/Nil_Income_Form_-_21-Jul-11.pdf

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  4. Well Historian, if you look at a4e Transitions website - http://www.a4etransitions.com/who-we-are/meet-the-team you will find "22 consultants are trained in Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) Business Diploma .....

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  5. Yes some of Instant Training's courses to a4e employees include NLP. Have a look - http://commercial.instanttraining.org.uk/testimonials/sales-training/

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    1. Thanks for those, Simone. There's a Wikipedia article that gives a good description and history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
      Personally, if I was obliged to get involved with it I would complain long and loud.

      Delete
    2. I wouldn't even bother to complain! It is completely, medically impossible, to brainwash or hypnotise someone who refuses to allow either idea. Which is why Governments use the techniques of physical torture instead - but any of us ordinary folk would just call the police in a case of physical assault, obviously.

      In the 1980s there was an American scheme around called "Insight." Many of the Bright Young Things in London were sucked up into this expensive nonsense, including a millionaire friend of mine, who tried to introduce me to the thing.

      The idea was a "course" that would run from Friday evening to Monday evening. 6pm till midnight on the Friday, then 9am till midnight on the following 3 days.

      The Daily Telegraph sent a journalist and a doctor to attend one of these "courses." According to the doctor, attendees were told that there was no need for them to go to the toilet. Needing to go to the loo was only a case of "mind over matter," seemingly. The doctor told the organisers that this was medical nonsense and that it is bad for the kidneys if they are not allowed to let the bladder evacuate waste matter as often as the person might want to.

      The doctor also said that what was actually happening was that the lack of refreshment during the sessions was causing the attendees' blood-sugar to drop to undesirably low levels during these very long sessio at the end of an already long working week. He said that people become very suggestible if their blood-sugar level falls too low.

      The DT journalist said that she had found the whole thing a complete waste of time from beginning to end. The doctor had arranged for the two of them to take a secret stash of glucose tablets with them, to keep their blood-sugar levels up since he had suspected what was likely to happen.

      This NLP nonsense sounds like a re-vamped version of the earlier pseudo-psycho-babble nonsense.

      Delete
    3. NLP was created in the 1970s, but yes, it's psychobabble which is very lucrative for its practitioners. But one should certainly not be subjected to it without one's consent.

      Delete
  6. Izzy said "a sanction doesn't just take away your JSA but your housing/council benefits too".

    I got a 2 week JSA sanction last year. My housing benefit and council rebate was unaffected. I informed the council that "I had nil income, and continue to sign on". That is all I had to do.

    If you don't contact your council then yes, you will also have your HB and CT suspended too. I hope this clarifies the situation!

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    1. many thanks for this clarification as I can pass this onto someone I know who has been sanctioned, how come they can sanction so many people it is a disgrace, I know someone who was in private rented accommodation and she was harrassed that much by her landlord for her rent, which was not being paid whilst she was taken from incapacity and put onto unemployment benefit forcibly that is, and whilst waiting for them to make changes she felt so intimidated she left. I cannot believe what is happening, this idea of sanctioning to save them money and putting people onto severe hardship, it is disgusting. I cannot understand that when we pay ni cons and taxes, to cover society when things go bad, then why sanction the people that need it. I do not believe in a civil society anyone should go without the full amount of benefit, not sanctioned and not hardship, and now the crisis loans - you are lucky if you get £3 for electricity - and this does not even get you a token. However, sorry to waffle, thanks for the info.

      Delete
  7. "One points out that clients are being pushed into self-employment but are not allowed to seek advice from the Jobcentre or anyone else"

    Re self employment, the third party companies used (Ingeus in Leeds use an outfit called Exemplus) appear to have a rigid policy. The time taken to co-develop a clients business idea appears to be of a rigid, fixed length. Which sounds unreasonable as one business idea can be more complex and take longer to set up than another. Just look how long it took the likes of Amazon and Last Minute dot com to break even, let alone be profitable.

    It seems once again the providers are using, via 3rd parties, the cheapest one size fits all approach. After all, self employment should not really be taken lightly. Clients need to be able to find the best approach that suits them AND their business proposal rather than being shoved into a 'paint by numbers' system.

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    1. I may have been the originator of Historian's quote above (I can't remember whether my comment was published), A4E where I am don't appear have a 3rd party involved.

      They have a self-employment advisor, whom I have to see in addition to my regular advisor. This person is the person who has been giving me the wrong information, the JC know about it but can't do anything and have said how sorry they are they are unable to refer me to see their own staff (whom other people have told me are very helpful and knowledgeable) for a second opinion. I have never been given the opportunity to go on any courses, it's just been me having an idea of something that would be possible for me to do and that's it.... and it isn't moving as fast as they'd like. I'm happy with it at the moment, the JC aren't bothered either and they told me that I should carry on as I am for the moment and not let A4E force me into becoming self-employed too soon just so they could claim the cash.

      The thing I am bothered about is that I have been told I don't need an accountant. I'm sure this isn't the case, and I have to say I would rather pay £300 unnecessarily to an accountant and ensure I got the tax sorted out and possibly then find I can't eat or heat the house than have money to eat and heat the house and rely on what A4E are telling me.

      Oh, and the other recent thing I was told by this advisor was that the new budget meant I'd have to do 28hrs a week instead of 16 (I'm a single parent) for working tax credits. On asking the JC they said it hadn't changed, and pulled up the info for me to see there and then.

      Delete
    2. If you mean the comment quoted in Historians blog post, it seems unlikely it's yours when I distinctly remember writing it myself :)

      Thanks to all who posted for the clarification on Housing benefit loss, I assumed it was purposeful but as many have pointed out it was in fact an indirect effect. It does appear that you can claim it back by proving you have no income.

      I wasn't aware that the office location would need to be censored from my post but after thinking about it, I'm glad and thankful you didn't publish it Historian. The more I read about this company the shadier it sounds, it wouldn't surprise me if they'd sink as low as reprisals.

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    3. just a tip for people who may not be aware,you can withdraw your consent at anytime to stop providers being in a position of obtaining any employers contact details,if they do they will be in breach of the data protection act and in deep crap.If you find a job on your own back,which no doubt 95% of everyone will,then just sign off from jsa as your circumstances have changed,you have no obligation to tell anyone your new employers address and this should not be shared without your consent.

      Delete
  8. As the author of the forum thread mentioned I would add:
    1. The course was mandatory with the usual threats of benefit sanction doubts being raised for non attendance.
    2. There was no advance warning of the nature of the course (just its title - INSPIRE) or of the involvement of "master practioners in NLP"
    3. Pemature leaving/ejection from of the course would (or at least could have) resulted in a benefit sanction - in effect it was compulsory
    4. I asked for a comfort break (I needed a pee!). I was told to wait 20 minutes (I didn't but just got up and left the room).
    The whole thing was a waste of time and whatever money changed hands. I found it intensely annoying and patronising and have made my opinions known to A4greed (not that I expect that to do any good).
    Gissajob

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    1. Gissajob

      Keep your chin up and remember Eleanor Roosevelt, who said, "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent."

      Mrs Roosevelt (the wife of Franklin D) was right and I never consent to any attempts to make me feel inferior. That is what patronising someone else amounts to, after all. I just laugh about it, rise above it and then forget it. So should everyone else, in my view.

      It is not worth getting cross about the inept nonsense being inflicted on us via the Work Programme, my friend.

      I reckon that the Work Programme will fall apart soon anyway. The providers are not making enough money out of it so they are pinning their own hopes on the idea that they will be able to re-negotiate the funding model for the WP.

      I doubt whether IDS has enough leeway to be able to agree. He's got the Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office both lying in wait to pounce on him if he tries to throw any more public money at the Work Programme scheme. The PAC and the NAO both say that the WP scheme is fundamentally flawed, which it is.

      IDS proved to be hopeless in 2001-2003 when he tried to be the wholly ineffective leader of the Tory Party, so what's new?

      Delete
    2. Thankyou Judi for your words of support.
      You say "It is not worth getting cross about the inept nonsense being inflicted on us via the Work Programme, my friend.".
      I disagree! This is exactly the sort of thing we should should be getting cross about! Not just because of the personal imposition on our time and energy (that's bad enough) but because the whole Wp is an immense waste of resources (time, money and effort)which with a little imagination and much less stress on the punitive could be put to much better use.
      Hey! So what do I know? I'm just one of the many unemployed, therefore my opinion is worthless.
      Thanks again for your words of support Judi but believe me as a survivor of the English boarding school system (albeit many years ago)I am more than used to dealing with a culture of bullying inflicted by petty beauracrats.
      Thanks again
      Gissajob

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    3. Tnanks for your reply, Gissajob

      Like you, I am also the product of a boarding school. That's where I learned to stick up for myself - nobody else was going to do it for me there!

      You said, "Hey! So what do I know? I'm just one of the many unemployed, therefore my opinion is worthless." On your analysis, my opinion is worthless as well since I'm also unemployed at the moment.

      However, thee & me complaining about the absurdity of the Work Programme won’t do any good because the Government refuses to listen to us. So, my friend, do a bit of lateral thinking and take the p*ss instead. It is a much more effective tool than formal complaint.

      Did you read about the pet cat that joined the British Board of Neuro Linguistic Programming in 2009? Were you aware that cats can speak English? Cats, it seems, can do far more than catch other creatures. Cats can sell psychobabble as well, it appears. Who’d a thunk it, eh?

      Something like that – the evidence for which is in Wiki – would have a much more powerful effect on your local JCP Manager and your local MP than whingeing would, Gissajob.

      In your shoes, I would also make bluddy certain that Margaret Hodge MP learns about it. She’s clever, she’s noisy, she’s Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee and she’d have a field day with the news if you tell her about A4E and the pet cat.

      And I would talk to historian, in confidence, as well. Historian knows some sympathetic journalists who could really take the p*ss out of this A4E and Instant Training without identifying you. Make sure you give historian your e-mail address.

      As that wisest of dogs, Snoopy, once said, “It isn’t whether you win or lose. It’s how you place the blame.”

      Delete
    4. I too feel that the dwp, the a4e and all the others do think since we are unemployed we dont count.. I didnt read it that gissajob was actually saying that to you judi. You actually say what he said "However, thee & me complaining about the absurdity of the Work Programme won’t do any good because the Government refuses to listen to us"

      All these reports and studies, they take the human out of the equation, they dont see you or me as anything but a tick box..this is the danger

      Delete
    5. The Anonymouse

      I agree with your sentiments completely. Of couse I do since I'm in the same boat myself.

      However, these W2W schemes have never been focussed on the Benefits claimants since the whole W2W idea was privatised in 2006. Since then, the whole thing has been aimed at producing W2W schemes that will make Benefts claimants stop claiming Benefits by fair means or foul. In turn, this would enable Ministers to take the credit for reducing the size of the Benefits bill and for "improving society."

      Whether or not you or I like the "tick box culture" that pervades the whole thing is irrelevant, my friend. Complaining about that would do zero good because nobody in authority would listen to us.

      Therefore my advice to Gissajob is, "Don't complain about being abused by having been sent on an NLP brainwashing course. Instead, discredit NLP by taking the p*ss out of the psychobabble, which is easily done by decribing the pet cat that became a member of the Brish Board of Neuro Linguistic Programming in 2009. Do that and you will also undermine A4E, who sent you on the daft brainwashing course in the first place."

      If Gissajob plays his cards cleverly and the Press agree to help him, he can embarrass the Government with the nonsense to which he was subjected. Being embarrassed makes pollies squirm and it makes Boards of Directors squirm too. There is nothing as effective as a headline, "MIAOW," followed by a byline describing how A4E's customers are being sent to cat-training classes at public expense.

      In contrast, complaining in the conventional manner is the short cut to being ignored.

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    6. I'm going to close this particular discussion because it's getting a bit repetitive.

      Delete
  9. Ok, a little research.. (I am a research maniac).. I find the MD of Instant training is a Nigel Heald MABNLP ABH (got from Linked in site http://www.linkedin.com/pub/nigel-heald-mabnlp-abh/16/421/377). Open public training courses are also extremely popular especially the sales for non-sales people demonstrating that the modern sales techniques are more about the psychology and persuasion and influence rather than manipulation.

    As an NLP mater practitioner and qualified Hypnotherapist Nigel delivers experiential training in a professional, friendly and extremely effective way guaranteeing a successful outcome.

    He has a Youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYzFttj9UTQ, he also has a few sales sites.. But in that video at 6.21 he mentions NLP, He has a few people staff from A4e Give testimonials about the courses Instant runs.

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    1. To get a taste of the course watch the video. Then imagine the same thing being played on a loop for the next 4 hours. Enjoy!
      Gissajob

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  10. I must be in the minority because I got training which gave me certificates in numeracy, literacy and employability. Yes I didnt like going but liked these sessions because it was different. They guy wasnt from wp but from the skills department. You should ask to use them. Mind you I am still unemployed but I got some money out of a4e at least

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    1. AnonymousApr 16, 2012 12:39 PM, For some Numeracy and Literacy are needed, they are valid courses. Now certificates in employablity.. what does that mean. I am more skilled than the staff there, I may not have the academic qualifications due to personal bereavement, (my dad died in my exam year and the school didnt tell the examiners or board it happened) but i got my Btec first and National So for me numeracy and literacy is irrelevant.

      Now your operative words You are still unemployed What value did a4e do that you couldn't get at your local college.. The whole point of a4e is to help people to get into jobs, but they dont seem to be able to do a good job.

      I have asked at a4e could I do some training, like a Pttls course, or something valid they say they have no funding or they haven't got anything they could suggest that will enhance my skill set. So to repeat literacy and numeracy is a Valid and good course for those who need it. But if you don't need it.

      Delete
    2. You say "but I got some money out of a4e at least". I have to tell you that probably the opposite is true!
      These courses are funded by European money (the European Social Fund). The organisations running them receive payment from the ESF and out of this "backhand" introductory commission to A4e. This can be as much as £1300 a pop. No wonder they are so keen to send people on these courses!
      All of this doesn't matter if the course is appropriate and helpful but there is clearly an incentive to milk the system (something A4e seem very good at). Can you imagine A4e actually providing training that they have to pay for?! I have been refused such on the grounds that it was "too expensive", probably this meant that the ESF wouldn't pay for it.

      Delete
    3. Very true,I have scoured all the providers and subcontractors websites with regards to training,a lot of talk about moulding training to your specific needs,when asked directly "What is on offer" no reply...when I have persisted by E-mail I have been accused of"Waging a war with my questions" simply put if you have a programme that delivers a decent product ie,training you should be promoting it,not hiding behind evasive answers.

      Delete
  11. We should all take this NLP rubbish most seriously.

    According to Wiki, "In 2009, a British television presenter was able to register his pet cat as a member of the British Board of Neuro Linguistic Programming (BBNLP)....."

    'Nuff said, methinks.

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  12. i'm a a4e customer going to a motivation session and a development session on different days, can any other a4e customer tell me what to except on these occasions? I asked my customer advisor, she didn't know, only that it's mandtory ive been to a interview techiques session, was common knowledge i told my advisor what i thought, boring, he just kept drawling on and he was a critic, i told him so, his replied, that's what i'm paid to do.

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  13. It's not just A4E.

    I went on a motivational course with the YMCA a couple of years back.

    We were told that we should look at ourselves every morning in the Mirror and say something like 'I am a worthwhile person and I'm going to win".


    We got a book full of such adages.

    At one point we were told to fill in a form giving the person we admired most. Suggestions included our Mother and Nelson Mandela.

    My choice, Bob Crow, did not go down well.

    I was embarrassed for the woman giving the course, and as I quite liked her I kept my mouth shut after that.


    The biography included "Men are from Mars and women are from Venus".

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    1. My impression today is that A4E's act is falling apart! I have absolutely no criticism of my own A4E advisor. He is a very pleasant young man and I think he is honest and genuine. His first attempt to park me on one of A4E's subcomtractors failed - the subbie suddenly ceased trading the week before my first appointment with them.

      I am not convinced that my A4E advisor's second attempt to "park" me (both literally and technically) on another of A4E's subcontractors is going to work, either. I have just spoken with "the man" from the second subbie, who has clearly never heard of me before but says he will phone me back!

      I suspect that nobody was expecting me to phone the second subbie's HQ and to get the name and direct dial phone number for their local "man." (Only a mobile number, admittedly, because the whole thing is so gimcrack that the subbie's man "works" from the local A4E office when he is in my area, which is not every day.)

      I feel much better, though, because it means I can now keep close tabs on the chap from the second subbie and make sure that nobody tries to pull any crafty stunts on me.

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    2. lol who is bob crow

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  14. If I found a job under my own steam (no intervention from A4e) while on a A4e Work Programme 2 year 'contract'. Could I be sued by A4e if I barred them from contacting my new employer and told A4e to shove off and not contact me again ?

    The aim of this would be to stop A4e finding out the required data for their 'payment on results'. This A4e would not deserve as they we not involved by any intervention on their part. Any payment would be fraudulent for work not undertaken if A4e were just to tick the relevant boxes.

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    1. I don't think you could stop them contacting your employer. It was always the case that providers claimed for outcomes they'd had no part in, but if the client wouldn't tell the provider who the employer was, there was nothing they could do. Even if the JC knew, they weren't allowed to share that information. But I think that's changed.

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    2. At my best induction in leeds, i was told by best that they could not sanction a person, and only the jobcenter could do that.

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    3. Why even tell the Job Centre? ..... Only Housing Benefit, if applicable.

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    4. True your under no obligation to tell the job center you have a job.

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    5. I believe that historian is correct.

      "Deadweight," in W2W jargon, is where the customer finds a job on his/her own, with no involvement by the W2W provider.

      My understanding is that the Government has agreed to permit the Primes to claim full payment for the deadweight results under the WP scheme.

      As far as I know, there is no criminal sanction on the deadweight customer who refuses to divulge details of the employment. However, if the employment is legitimate "employment by a third party" then the Government will be able to discover the details of the employment via HMRC. As far as I know, the Primes will not have any access to the data held by HMRC but I believe that the DWP will.

      Presumably it will then be up to the Prime to pester the DWP in order to be able to claim payment for the Prime. That can be done simply by paying the Prime as a result of the evidence obtained by the DWP from HMRC - there is no need for anyone to breach the Data Protection Act in order to ensure that the Prime can be paid.

      Sure, this would also lead to a situation in which the Prime cannot pester either the employer or the employee - BUT - the only reason to permit that is so that the Prime can ensure that the Prime will be paid in accordance with the WP Contract between the Govt and the Prime.

      It is less laborious for the DWP if the ex-customer and his/her employer can be persuaded to provide the Prime with the proof by themselves but if the deadweight customer refuses to co-operate with that then the Prime will still be able to get its payment from the DWP because of the involvement of HMRC, I believe.

      Delete
    6. I don't think this is what "dead weight" means. It's the number which would get jobs without any involvement by anyone else. You can't talk about a "deadweight customer", only about a deadweight figure. I don't know whether you are correct about the DWP being able to get information from HMRC - I'm doubtful.

      Delete
    7. Well if you are right Jodi, I would nevertheless stay stum if I found a job whilst under their auspices and make them earn their crust for once. Money for jam eh?

      Delete
  15. when the system is up & running(it isn't at the minute!)-a client being 'off benefits' for the specified period will automatically trigger a payment to the prime with whom they are registered-at the moment it is still a paper based system- so chasing & form filling will still be necessary!
    I believe the long term plan is to link the HMRC & DWP systems-but DWP will not need to access HMRC details as the prime is paid on the basis of benefit savings

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    1. So if someone is sanctioned, they are classed as "Off benefits", and the Prime gets a payment ?

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    2. What about someone who reaches the age for pension credit? Stops claiming JSA and switches onto PC. Is still technically unemployed (though I doubt appears in the stats!) and doesn't have to sign on or go to provider. Do they still get paid - just for someone living long enough to draw pension credit?

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    3. Mr P.

      I have commented in the past that there are only two ways out of the current WP.

      1) Get a job, and the provider will get paid via off-benefit checks (as per DWP published docs).

      2) Die - You will be "off benefits", and presumably trigger a payment.

      Admittedly, I had never considered retirement, but as you would no longer be claiming JSA, it *might* trigger payments to the provider.

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  16. I went on the Instant course and actually found it interesting and helpful? which course did you do?

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  17. well after suffering spondylosis for 15 years i have just been sent a letter to say i have to be have a medical to see weather i can work or be stuck on jobseekers amazing

    ReplyDelete

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